that was great but I am a little confused. I thought the remediation process included enzyme treatments and UV light. How do you get rid of the mycotoxins?
Susanna, the notion that enzyme and UV is necessary is from marketing ans sales of those product.s
There are so many mycotoxins, and so many factors that interfere with trying to use chemical reactions, that it is best and most efficient to simply remove the particualtes that mycotoxins are attached to .
We've been calling the extracellular material, ECM. That way, it includes guttate and other broken fragments, spores, cell wall components, etc.
Whether tht is a significant exposure in a water damaged building remains to be seen.
the "worst" part of this is the dearth of environmental condition data. No one on the medical side understands exposure conditions (substrate, pathway, concentrations, loading factor, etc) therefore they ignore it and do not collect that data. They just claim things like "mycotoxins in urine" therefor there "must be" exposure. I provided expert input on a case where the doc said, "the illness existed therefor the mold had to have been there even if 3 sets of public and environmental health inspections found nothing, and even tho the water damage history was nill" - My client won. for obvious reason.
This is all very interesting but also very confusing ...if mycotoxins are "invisible", how can one detect/determine the source so as to avoid re-exposure? I tested extremely high (full black bar) for sterigmatocystin on a mycotoxin urine panel from Great Plains Laboratory. The report states this is commonly from the dust from carpets in previously water damaged buildings or it also listed several potential food sources. I have had one microbiologist tell me if I tested high for that it's likely some thing I was eating. Then I had a certified mold doctor tell me that it's rarely from a food source and more likely from a water damaged building. Which do you think is the more likely source of this level of sterigmatocystin? Could it be from contaminated food sources like coffee beans, corn/grains? My house is clean, dry and relatively dust free most of the time (I vacuum and dust a lot because we have a cat). We have not had any major water damage incidents and no leaks/moisture problems. I did used to get the carpets professionally steam cleaned though as I thought that was the right thing to do being a pet owner. I now know from your articles that the ERMI is not a reliable tool, but had one done before reading this and the result was only 1. This gave me some relief until I read your article that it is not reliable.
I suspect another possible exposure is that I could have been exposed to sterigmatocystin when I worked in a musty basement department of the hospital. How can I know for sure if this specific mycotoxin is in my house? That's all I care about...don't need to determine where it came from if it was a previous exposure, just need peace of mind that it is not where I currently live. Also, if it could be a food source, I have stopped consuming all suspect foods. I have heard such severely conflicting opinions on the source of this mycotoxin and how to get rid of it from my body. Thoroughly confused and don't know who to trust. Thank you in advance for any opinions or research/article links🙂
Hey Scott - what's your though on mycotoxin spread via guttation droplets? Seeing more discussion of it these days. Discussion in the introduction with references here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8877819/
Joseph, do you know where the term, "Condition 1" comes from?
There is a Standard of Care (which means the minimum a contractor/remediator needs to do the job) called the IICRC/ANSI S520-2015 Professional Mold Remediation Standard.
It is the 3rd edition of a consensus document developed by a variety of industry specialists and experts. They contribue and arrive at an agreed-upon set of methods to do the job.
The idea of Condition 1 came about to describe a "normal, clean and dry" building that does not encourage or support unhealthy mold growth. It is defined in the S520 as "normal fungal ecology" - whch is often confusing to some people. The point however is, ask youself, "does this building, or this office, or this living room or bathroom, have conditions that are conducive to mold growth?" IF so, it it not Condition 1.
The other two Conditions, 2 and 3, describe the mold contamination. Condition 3 is the actual growth - that is visible when you find it (which means, you might have to remove a wall or carpet to "see" it. It is the obvious stuff you dont want! And, it is going to need excess water - either vapor or liquid, to make it grow and continue to grow. Condition 2 is what i call "The Invisible Condition" - it is "settled and airborne spores and mld fragments and particles". It is the stuff that broke off, disturbed, or ejected by the mold, into the air, and landed on surfaces - some people call tihs "cross-contamination". It is usually part of the overall dirt and dust load of surfaces that do not have water damage.
Hope that helps get you started... Feel free to look at my other articles and always ask more questions! And please share my MoldLogic.substack.com page with other on FB and IG and everywhere you go...
As a scientist, I would like a clear definition which the IICRC is unwilling to provide.
Condition 1
An indoor environment that may have settled spores, fungal fragments or traces of actual growth whose identity location and quantity are reflective of a normal fungal ecology for a similar indoor environment.
Now define the word "traces" and "normal fungal ecology"
As most laboratories use the American International Standard to perform analysis of surface samples so, as per the American International Standard, results must be reported in fs/cm2.
Nobody I know can define "a trace" in terms of fs/cm2, which is always interesting when discussing bathrooms.
As for a "normal fungal ecology", some say that it is <500fs/cm2, some say that it is <1000fs/cm2 and some will fail a site if they find one mould spore of Chaetomium spp. or Stachybotrys spp.
Reality is, the same sample may be analysed by two different laboratories then, in getting a similar result from both laboratories, be failed by one and passed by the other.
that was great but I am a little confused. I thought the remediation process included enzyme treatments and UV light. How do you get rid of the mycotoxins?
Susanna, the notion that enzyme and UV is necessary is from marketing ans sales of those product.s
There are so many mycotoxins, and so many factors that interfere with trying to use chemical reactions, that it is best and most efficient to simply remove the particualtes that mycotoxins are attached to .
We've been calling the extracellular material, ECM. That way, it includes guttate and other broken fragments, spores, cell wall components, etc.
Whether tht is a significant exposure in a water damaged building remains to be seen.
the "worst" part of this is the dearth of environmental condition data. No one on the medical side understands exposure conditions (substrate, pathway, concentrations, loading factor, etc) therefore they ignore it and do not collect that data. They just claim things like "mycotoxins in urine" therefor there "must be" exposure. I provided expert input on a case where the doc said, "the illness existed therefor the mold had to have been there even if 3 sets of public and environmental health inspections found nothing, and even tho the water damage history was nill" - My client won. for obvious reason.
This is all very interesting but also very confusing ...if mycotoxins are "invisible", how can one detect/determine the source so as to avoid re-exposure? I tested extremely high (full black bar) for sterigmatocystin on a mycotoxin urine panel from Great Plains Laboratory. The report states this is commonly from the dust from carpets in previously water damaged buildings or it also listed several potential food sources. I have had one microbiologist tell me if I tested high for that it's likely some thing I was eating. Then I had a certified mold doctor tell me that it's rarely from a food source and more likely from a water damaged building. Which do you think is the more likely source of this level of sterigmatocystin? Could it be from contaminated food sources like coffee beans, corn/grains? My house is clean, dry and relatively dust free most of the time (I vacuum and dust a lot because we have a cat). We have not had any major water damage incidents and no leaks/moisture problems. I did used to get the carpets professionally steam cleaned though as I thought that was the right thing to do being a pet owner. I now know from your articles that the ERMI is not a reliable tool, but had one done before reading this and the result was only 1. This gave me some relief until I read your article that it is not reliable.
I suspect another possible exposure is that I could have been exposed to sterigmatocystin when I worked in a musty basement department of the hospital. How can I know for sure if this specific mycotoxin is in my house? That's all I care about...don't need to determine where it came from if it was a previous exposure, just need peace of mind that it is not where I currently live. Also, if it could be a food source, I have stopped consuming all suspect foods. I have heard such severely conflicting opinions on the source of this mycotoxin and how to get rid of it from my body. Thoroughly confused and don't know who to trust. Thank you in advance for any opinions or research/article links🙂
Hey Scott - what's your though on mycotoxin spread via guttation droplets? Seeing more discussion of it these days. Discussion in the introduction with references here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8877819/
Define "Condition 1"
Joseph, do you know where the term, "Condition 1" comes from?
There is a Standard of Care (which means the minimum a contractor/remediator needs to do the job) called the IICRC/ANSI S520-2015 Professional Mold Remediation Standard.
It is the 3rd edition of a consensus document developed by a variety of industry specialists and experts. They contribue and arrive at an agreed-upon set of methods to do the job.
The idea of Condition 1 came about to describe a "normal, clean and dry" building that does not encourage or support unhealthy mold growth. It is defined in the S520 as "normal fungal ecology" - whch is often confusing to some people. The point however is, ask youself, "does this building, or this office, or this living room or bathroom, have conditions that are conducive to mold growth?" IF so, it it not Condition 1.
The other two Conditions, 2 and 3, describe the mold contamination. Condition 3 is the actual growth - that is visible when you find it (which means, you might have to remove a wall or carpet to "see" it. It is the obvious stuff you dont want! And, it is going to need excess water - either vapor or liquid, to make it grow and continue to grow. Condition 2 is what i call "The Invisible Condition" - it is "settled and airborne spores and mld fragments and particles". It is the stuff that broke off, disturbed, or ejected by the mold, into the air, and landed on surfaces - some people call tihs "cross-contamination". It is usually part of the overall dirt and dust load of surfaces that do not have water damage.
Hope that helps get you started... Feel free to look at my other articles and always ask more questions! And please share my MoldLogic.substack.com page with other on FB and IG and everywhere you go...
Oh ... I started a long time ago.
As a scientist, I would like a clear definition which the IICRC is unwilling to provide.
Condition 1
An indoor environment that may have settled spores, fungal fragments or traces of actual growth whose identity location and quantity are reflective of a normal fungal ecology for a similar indoor environment.
Now define the word "traces" and "normal fungal ecology"
As most laboratories use the American International Standard to perform analysis of surface samples so, as per the American International Standard, results must be reported in fs/cm2.
Nobody I know can define "a trace" in terms of fs/cm2, which is always interesting when discussing bathrooms.
As for a "normal fungal ecology", some say that it is <500fs/cm2, some say that it is <1000fs/cm2 and some will fail a site if they find one mould spore of Chaetomium spp. or Stachybotrys spp.
Reality is, the same sample may be analysed by two different laboratories then, in getting a similar result from both laboratories, be failed by one and passed by the other.